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Response to Clare
(Printable
PDF file)
Doug's comments in
bold. Clare's original email is in the midst of this, with the
exception of a couple of paragraphs about Chris. It is available
online elsewhere for people to reference, if necessary. At the
bottom is Clare's (non)response to Doug's concerns. (HERE)
From: Doug
Perry, Fellowship Of The Martyrs (fotm1), 6/3/08
(fotm@fellowshipofthemartyrs.com)
Dear Clare -
and the rest of those listening,
This is my
formal response to Clare's email from May 25th, and below that, my
response to her email from May 26th. There have been additional
emails that went out making accusations and I'll try to address them
as I'm able. I pray the Lord will speak TRUTH in all things here and
that eyes will be open to the SPIRITS that are operating behind these
things. I have withheld speaking at all for a long time, while people
have gotten more and more vicious. Yesterday (6/2/08), the Lord said
it was time to respond. Please pray for me as responding is even more
dangerous than keeping silent.
I continue to
pray that Clare's eyes will be open and that she will be led to
repentance. I am not angry with her or anyone else and never have
been. I know that Christ is grieved by this situation and I continue
to seek Him about anything that I have done to contribute to it. Even
if you believe that I'm a deceived, megalomaniacal cult leader - if
the words I'm speaking here are TRUTH - and lies that you have
believed are exposed, then at least pray for Clare and those involved
that repentance will flow. If I'm right about this, then I fear for
her soul. I don't know how you can do and say these things and still
believe that you are somehow scripturally OK with God and
"safe". Others that are involved, particularly June, are in
a very bad place as well.
Red Dragons are
real and we've got a big mean, snarly one here on this web of lies.
If I'm wrong, then the things she has spoken will be true and
anointed and right. And they aren't. Now, I don't have any doubt at
all that Clare BELIEVES the things she says in this email - that
makes is all the more distressing.
Clare, please
repent. See the control and manipulation and lies for what they are
and repent. Please! You KNOW that you have unforgiveness and
bitterness in your heart. We talked over and over about the video of
Daniel Ekechukwu who died and went to hell because of his
unforgiveness. You KNEW and repeatedly preached to people about the
danger of that. Your soul is NOT safe if you are harboring bitterness
and resentment and have ought against a brother - which you admitted
to me you did against Chris and absolutely refused to do anything
about. Please, Clare. I don't want you to follow me - never did. I
did all that I could to STOP you when you were. But your eyes are not
on Jesus if you're doing all these things. Please repent.
(My comments
are in bold for clarity. Where Clare's comments were bold, I have
unbolded them. If you get this through some medium (YouTube) that
removes the bolds, well then you're on your own, I guess. Or you can
read it posted on this page -
http://www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com/response_to_clare.htm )
To all my brethren
and beloved friends,
It is with a heavy
heart and deep sadness that I have to tell you all that I am no
longer associated with Doug Perry, and the Fellowship of the Martyrs
(FOTM), the "church of Liberty" and "Liberty Disaster
Relief". Doug chose to take this action against me because
the LORD had me withdraw my support for him doctrinally, and
financially when he chose to leave this address.
That's not true
at all, Clare. I didn't take any action against you until you had
already made it clear that you wanted nothing to do with me at all.
And the only action I took was to change the email password for
clare@fotm and to block you from the discussion board. Both of which
should have been a complete non-issue since YOU had already said that
you wanted nothing to do with FOTM. I didn't "choose" to
leave that address. We had corporately agreed to rent the third
townhouse and we had every bed full in 615 and ONE bed full in 106.
You and Gary had said that you were married and for a whole number of
reasons (some of which I'm sure I don't understand) the Lord told me
to move to 106. It is less than 100 yards away and you WERE NOT
abandoned. That you were hurt personally because you felt like I
"moved headquarters" and "abandoned you" is proof
positive that you were idolizing me - and all the more reason why the
Lord would have me move out. Further, you did not withdraw
"your" financial support. Whatever money was there had
already been committed to the ministry and you had laid it on the
altar. I did NOT move out because you withdrew your financial support
OR because of doctrinal agreements. You paint me as a villain when in
fact, I moved THEN you pulled the money out of the safe and began
finding all kinds of reasons to justify your decision to sever all
ties with me - and Gary egged it on for his own control/power issues.
Though we have disagreed on things, there was no impending giant
clash of doctrines that would lead you to call me "an
antichrist" previous to me moving to 106. You were hurt and felt
abandoned and angry that you weren't consulted or told ahead of time.
You didn't trust God that He was telling me to move and you got in
the flesh - and remain so.
I dared to stand
against him, in disagreement with his view on quite a number of
things which were causing the body of Christ here and around the
world a lot of division and distress. (I have disagreed with him on
numerous occasions which has caused him to DIS-favor me from his
inner circle of 'trusted counselors'.) He has blocked me from
Administrating the Discussion Board, he has blocked me from accessing
my FOTM email box, and has removed all my connections from the
Liberty Disaster Relief including taking the key to the van which was
used for delivering food and goods to the local needy of this community.
Again, none of
that happened until after I moved and you renounced wanting to have
anything to do with me or FOTM (or any associated ministries).
This was the
LORD's ministry into this community which He had me pour my heart
into - mostly on my own, except for Suzanne's help at first, and now
with Gary helping.
If it was the
Lord's ministry then you should not be so quick to distance yourself
from it because I am involved.
He also tried to
have me arrested just a few days ago for stealing the ministry van
which I had taken to go and send some emergency funds to a sister in
distress stuck on the road in the storms in Oklahoma. I had the key,
of course, which he had given me. The police just laughed, but this
incident revealed his heart to me, and I felt saddened and bewildered
by it. He has since asked me to forgive him, and I have, although the
motives of his heart had been exposed.
You leave out
too much, Clare. You leave out that the police were already called to
615 because you had called them on Chris for "trespassing"
and you wanted him thrown out of the house. You leave out that you
and I had already emailed the day before and I had begged you not to
play this "my stuff, your stuff" game. You continued to
insist that simply because I moved my sleeping quarters to 106, that
I had "abandoned" you. You leave out that the night before
I had parked the van in front of 106 and that you took it that
morning without permission. (In fact, I hadn't even driven my own van
in weeks as you were using it exclusively. However it was not a
"ministry van" as you describe it - it was purchased for me
by God on my big trip months and months before we moved into the
townhouse and set up the pantry.) You leave out that when the police
arrived, you instructed them to eject me as well as Chris from the
premises and that we were unwelcome. I have admitted that at that
moment I got in the flesh and, in response, to your efforts to get
Chris in trouble. I went down to 615 when Chris told me the police
were called and the Lord said that THAT was your response to
"let's not play this game" and that I was to go down, take
down the Liberty Disaster Relief sign and get the keys to the van
back. I knew that the officer standing there had NO intention of
arresting anyone, nor was it ever in my heart to see you in jail or
any such a thing. The van was out front and I acknowledged to the
officer that you often used it without asking permission. He said,
"OK, she wants you out and you want your keys back. Let's
go." And I took what FOTM materials I could carry, took the van
key, Chris left peacefully, you got the safe key and off we went. You
leave out how much of my things you still have at the house and that
Gary said if I wanted them to take you to court. You leave out the
snarly, haughty look on your face and Gary's. You leave out how many
times you have threatened people with calling the police on them if
they don't leave "your" house. You leave out how much you
are leaning on the Laws of Man to defend you. AND I repented to you
for looking to Man to solve my problems when the Lord simply told me
to go get the key, not have the police do it for me. And you said you
forgave me, but you keep digging it up again and twisting it into
something it wasn't - which seems pretty clear to me that you didn't
actually forgive me. You leave out that soon after you took any
remaining FOTM materials, shirts and other stuff, tore them up, threw
them in the trash and "cleansed the house" of the "evil
influence of Doug."
He smashed a chair
to pieces outside the front door of the house in a rage, which he
claimed was the "wrath of God", and has since smashed the
"Liberty Disaster Relief" sign which he had taken from this
place and nailed to the front of the townhouse that he is now
occupying. His colors are showing. Not only has Chris an anger
problem, but I am finding that Doug has too when he is thwarted.
You leave out
that you refused to have any reasonable discussion, that Gary was
being a complete jerk, that the disunity and bitterness and
unforgiveness in your heart were already affecting the Body, that you
had already manhandled and ejected Andrew after he tried to warn you,
and many other things had happened. I was there to try one last time
to get through to you and you both refused to hear any voice, went
inside and locked the door. I was not angry, nor do I have an anger
problem. But the Father was seriously grieved. I don't understand
prophetically what it all was, but breaking that chair was a
statement about you and your house and that the mercy had run out. At
another time, when I tried to talk to you the DAY after you forgave
me for everything, had reconciled, we ALL stood in a circle and
everyone had a chance to get anything out that they had against a
brother - the DAY after that beautiful bit of reconciliation
(including Gary asking for forgiveness and hugging me) you and Gary
flatly refuse and renounce all of it and start it all up again. You
were proud of the new name for YOUR ministry and even when I stood
there ASKING you if you needed the van for what God was calling you
to do, said, "We don't need ANYTHING from you!" As God is
my witness, I was ready at that moment to sign the title over to you.
Gary S. is a witness that I stood there OFFERING IT and was treated
badly and dismissively. The Lord showed me how all this fighting over
"my ministry, your ministry" was STUPID. When I walked back
to 106, I got out a screw gun and took down the Liberty Disaster
Relief sign and broke it in half and left it out by the trash. I
didn't angrily do it or fling it or rip anything. I saw the reality
that there were eight men in that house who EACH have their own
ministries and to put a sign out front saying that they were all
under THAT banner was wrong. So it came down. Better to have none
than all this stupidity.
You would
accuse Jesus ejecting
the money changers from temple
of
having an "anger problem", given your criteria. There is
such a thing as righteous indignation, but you refuse to believe that
someone could raise their voice and still be acting like
"your" Jesus. Yet the Bible is not on your side.
He is angry with
me. I stopped the financial flow. I had bailed him out of jail
in November to the tune of $5,000.00 for non payment of child
support. I also paid his lawyer's fees.
Clare, these
are all lies. For one thing your dates are wrong, it was NOT in
November, it was the 11th of September. A warrant was issued for me
because of "Failure to Appear in Court" because they had
served me notice of a court
date at
an address at
which
I have never lived - and yet held me responsible for not showing up
in court! And when the deputies came and nicely escorted me downtown,
I told you to pray and do whatever the Lord told you. I SPECIFICALLY
and repeatedly told you and the others there NOT to bail me out if
the Lord wanted me there for some reason. Yet you came within a few
hours with $5000 of the ministry money to make bail. And you
repeatedly assured me that you had heard God really clearly about it.
Yet know you make it sound like I coerced you somehow. Did you hear
God or didn't you? Were you lying then or are you lying now? And,
Clare, YOU never paid for legal fees or anything else. You were told
by God, by your own admission repeatedly before witnesses that He had
told you in NO uncertain terms to take that money and lay it down for
the use of the ministry. And when there was an issue about it and you
tried to control it, you admitted repeatedly that the Lord had placed
it in MY hands for use and that you were to release it. I flatly
refuse to acknowledge that I EVER spent YOUR money. Whether the Lord
provided through strangers, or the Body or through you - once laid at
the altar, it stops being YOUR money. I don't know what it's called
in Australia, but here we call that being an "indian giver".
I think the Bible calls it "double-minded".
He came to me
three weeks ago (Saturday) as nice as can be, nicer than he has been
to me in such a long time, and after a while told me that he needed
$500 to be paid by Monday 5pm or he could go to jail for non payment
of his monthly child support. He asked me if I would pray real, real
hard and ask the LORD if I was supposed to help him with that. The
LORD said REAL, REAL clear - "No! No! No! HE is responsible for
his children and he must pay his child support." So I
heard Doug, and let the LORD deal with the answer. Now I know
why he was so nice to me.
I was not being
nice to you to get money. I was being gentle and calm because there
was already a lot of tension. And I had already turned you over to
the Body for correction because you were no longer able to hear me. I
asked you ONE question, you gave your answer and that was that. I
made no effort to coerce you. I wouldn't have asked at all, or needed
to, had you not taken the money that you had laid on the altar BACK
OFF the altar. And the Lord has always been faithful to me with or
without you. He always financially met my needs before your house
sold and always will. Were
I drawing a "salary" then nobody would have any complaint
about me using my salary to pay for my bills - which might include
child support. But somehow you make this sound different. You
have used "ministry money" for things that were purely
personal. So what? The Lord provided this money for the needs of the
Body - some mundane, some evangelistic.
He had not
been nice to me for months. On the contrary, he has tried constantly
to crush my spirit with judgment and condemnation, even in front
of all the other brethren here. His reasoning for that was to
"make me strong". That it did! Because if he
hadn't over and over tried to crush me, and my spirit, I would not
now have the strength and the courage to STAND NOW and say, "Hey,
this evil MUST STOP and NOW!" if you kick a dog often and
hard enough, one day that dog will turn and bite you.
Yes and you are
turning and biting. (Is that Jesus?) But it's because you repeatedly
refused to acknowledge your idolatry, your unforgiveness, the
manipulation and meanness in the way you were handling the least of
these, you exaggerations and lies (even to children). The Lord WILL
force you to see and face what you are hiding inside. How much better
for you to have heard the rebukes sent to you THEN rather than all of this.
THIS IS NOT AND
NEVER HAS BEEN THE NATURE, THE BEAUTY, THE LOVE, THE MERCY, THE
GRACE, THE GLORY, THE MAJESTY, THE WONDER, THE PURE GLORY OF OUR
JESUS- MY JESUS! It is DECEIT and LIES!.....and MUST STOP!
Doug calls himself "a giant wrecking ball".....SO
TRUE! Chris calls himself "God's pit-bull".......what
can I say! For God did not send His Son into the world to
condemn the world, (as Doug does) but that the world through Him
should be saved! He who believes on Him IS NOT CONDEMNED! (John
3:17-21) There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are in
Christ Jesus! - who walk, not after the flesh but after the Spirit!
NONE! (see Romans 8:1-2) Thank You Jesus! Thank You, my
Savior! You truly are THE God of love!
Clare, you cut
out half the Bible with this theology of soft, fluffy Jesus. He WILL
take a bullwhip to the temple. He will flatten Jerusalem. He will
make his own children eat their babies. You quote John 3:16 so
powerfully and leave out John 3:17. He is a JUST God and if you DO
NOT abide in Him then you stand condemned already. He is the God of
JUSTICE. If you do not obey, if you do not walk in love, if you spit
on the least of these and lean on the arm of flesh then you stand
condemned already.
I have sought the
LORD and His forgiveness, I need to seek everyone's forgiveness for
not having spoken out sooner about all this. I ask you all to
please forgive me. I have had SERIOUS reservations about a lot of
what Doug has been "teaching" for a long time, and have
spoken to him about much of it, going to him and pleading with him to
look again and seek the LORD on the truth. He refused not only
me, but NUMEROUS other respected elders and prophets who have come to
him and challenged him on his teachings. The trouble is, that a
lot of it IS truth! A LOT is! And it is powerful.
But some of it is NOT - and justifies the twisting of the
Scriptures to suit his ends. Chris Evans as well.
Clare, the one
time that you and I sat down to talk about all your concerns about
marriage, you made a long list and we talked it out item by item -
and in EVERY instance you saw that you were wrong and repented - and
when we were done admitted that you must have had a red dragon
because you were not seeing any of it clearly. Are you denying that
talk? You have twisted even the things the Lord Himself did to show
you truth into something that now even condemns you. You assert that
marriage is permanent and the law is supreme and that God
acknowledges all marriages on earth as holy - yet you are remarried a
third time while two previous husbands are yet alive. You told me at
one point that God never acknowledged your marriage to John and said
that it was adulterous. You felt that was because the first husband
was still alive. Then you asked and the Lord said He didn't
acknowledge that one EITHER. Are you denying that you heard that? If
so, then how can you justify marrying Gary now? You are the one
twisting even the powerful vision the Lord gave you to suit your
purposes and defend your arguments.
I especially have
a serious problem with these two men's 'definition' of a 'spiritual'
marriage. It has been used to justify the relationship between Doug
and a woman who is already married, and between Chris and at least 2
other women that he "spiritually married" while still
married to his wife.
This story has
now grown and been exaggerated into all kinds of things. You don't
understand my theology about marriage at all - you've tangled it up
with your own preconceptions and hatred of men and the spirits that
have whispered to you. You have inferred that Chris has MANY of these
and people have listened to these lies and fed it. June told Chris
she was divorcing him way back in July of 2006. She is an unbeliever
by any measure other than "once saved, always saved" and
left him. That she didn't follow through as she said and file is
evidence that she is double-minded, not that she was willing to
submit to and respect her husband. I am a witness to repeated emails
and calls when June demanded a divorce. In fact, Chris has repented
for every marrying her and knows that it was not God that joined them
together. The Bible is clear that if an unbeliever leaves, you are
RELEASED. If not, then how do you justify your own actions? John
didn't leave you, you left him.
I cannot support
what they are doing, especially teaching that if a person was not
TOLD by God to marry the other person it was not a marriage ordained
by God and therefore did not exist.
That is not
what I believe, nor what I have taught. In fact, I have NO teachings
on marriage at all in writing or on the internet. I did not
"create" some marriage doctrine - I'm simply trying to
understand what God is doing. Clearly the institution of
"marriage" is broken. How broken is it and why? Surely it
is to be a HOLY estate centered around God. How can it be HOLY
because a man issued a piece of paper saying that it is? If it is not
GOD centered, then there is a good chance that it's just flesh. As
your own history asserts. Would you prefer that I encourage people
into "non-spiritual marriages"?
I repent of ever
having even listened to such nonsense, let alone being intimidated
into a 'sort of' agreement that this could be truth. God
sanctifies marriage. It is His institution, and the vows taken
before Him are holy, and two people becoming one-flesh before Him is
HIS alone to break asunder, not ours. (Matth.19:6)
Then why did
you divorce John? And why did you assert that the Lord had told you
throughout that it was adulterous, that you were wrong and rebellious
to have married him and that God DID NOT honor it? Were you wrong
then or wrong now? And I have never asserted ANYTHING other than that
God should be the ONLY one to break asunder a marriage. Unfortunately
many, many people take matters into their own hands - maybe because
they were in marriages that were not FIRST a "spiritual"
thing centered around God.
I am appalled and
horrified that they could pray death for the husband of this
precious, deceived woman who Doug has kept in secret - not even
allowing her to assemble with her brethren (Hebrews 10:24-27), but
separating her and keeping her apart from ANY fellowship with the brethren.
I have not at
any time prayed any such a thing. I have ALWAYS been VERY careful
about my motivation in ANY prayers. I have not directed anyone's
paths or told them to refuse fellowship. These are self-serving lies, Clare.
He has had here
change her email address and her phone number so none of us can
contact her. Only Doug has access to her as her 'spiritual
mentor'......I fear for her! I fear for the outcome of this and
how it will affect her, although she herself had told Doug well over
a year ago that "God told her she was going to be his bride."
These are more
lies, Clare. ALL lies. I have not told anyone at any time to change
their phone number of email address or make me their "spiritual
mentor". I have repeatedly to all that would listen told people
to OBEY GOD! These are flat out lies, Clare. The Lord will show this
for what it is. I pray that you will repent before it's too late.
If Doug's 'theory'
about spiritual marriage were to be the truth, that would render
probably 99.9% of all marriages ever, null and void, and billions of
children bastards, and also renders God's holy institution of
marriage no longer holy.
That isn't true
at all. I acknowledge that God chooses what to honor and what not to.
You have said yourself on many occasions that probably 99% of the
people sitting in "church" are going straight to hell. Why
should it be any surprise that the enemy of our souls has been JUST
as effective with something as foundational as marriage? Things are
VERY bad out there. I have no idea how bad, but far worse than any
wants to admit. God DOES NOT automatically honor whatever foolhardy
vow we make to someone. That the state or a guy with a funny collar
acknowledges something as a "marriage" does not mean that
God is forced to agree with them.
The LORD showed me
the vision that Peter had when I asked Him about spiritual marriage,
when Peter became hungry and wanted to eat (See Acts 10:9-16, 28) and
told me that this was not just an application regarding food, but ALL
things and people that God has sanctified, we must NOT call unholy,
unclean or not of God. At first I mis-interpreted it, thinking that
God was telling me that Doug and his "wife's" relationship
was of God. I repented of leaning on my own understanding of this vision.
You know, I
trust a lot more the anointing that was flowing that evening, than
the self-serving justification you have created for it now. And
especially since your interpretation of that vision NOW condemns YOU
for having left EITHER of your previous marriages! Can't you see that
if your understanding of that vision is true, then God sanctified
your marriage to John and you could have never possibly heard all
those years that it was adulterous?! You are flip-flopping and God
cannot bless a double-minded man (or woman). And if it really was God
and now you have excused it away and repented for what He told you,
then you are dangerously close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
For God has made
marriage a wonderful thing before Him, right from the Garden of Eden,
and so much so, that He even refers to the Church as the Bride of
Christ, admonishing men to love their wives as Jesus loves the
church. I believe that the most important union in a marriage
is DEFINITELY between two people spiritually, that couples SHOULD be
united in spirit with and before the LORD in marriage and not just
physically. I know that what Doug has put 'out there' about
'spiritual marriage' has caused a lot of concern and grief, and many
people have been hurt by their beliefs and subsequent actions.
Much of what
has "been put out there" was "put out there" by
you and others who have added your own lenses onto what the Lord is
trying to teach us all through this. For the record, I don't have ANY
doctrine at ALL on "Spiritual Marriage". I simply believe
that marriages that are not SPIRITUAL are simply carnal and are not
necessarily acknowledged by God as marriages at all. He may choose to
enforce a vow you make, or He may choose to crush it and punish you
for having made it. He is GOD. He is NOT at our whim and pleasure,
endorsing as HOLY whatever fool thing we get ourselves into. THAT
kind of doctrine reflects a substantial lack of fear of the Lord and
puts Him in a box of our making. He can join or sever anyone that any
time. In fact, even if you were married for 50 years and your spouse
dies, how can you say anything other than that God ended that
marriage? He forcibly divorced you. There are biblical examples of
God commanding people to put away the wives they were never supposed
to have married in the first place - and presumably then having them
remarry the right one!
You can say
what you will, but there are also testimonies of people who have been
substantially grown and blessed by an understanding that their
marriage must FIRST AND FOREMOST be directed by God and blessed by
God. You make no mention of the people who have NOT been hurt by an
ACCURATE and complete explanation of what it is that the Bible seems
to be saying about the need for "marriage" to be spiritual
and not carnal. Again, for the record, I AM NOT NOW NOR HAVE I AT ANY
POINT said that people can have more than one physical spouse at a
time or that adultery is OK or that divorce - when initiated and
directed by man - is OK.
I pray that this
nonsense will go no further and that ALL will test the spirits and
search the Scriptures for the truth before they go believing such
'marginal' and suspect theories. Believe God. Trust in Him, and do
not lean on your own - or anyone elses - understanding!
Yes, not mine
and not Clare's. Listen to God, study the Word, ask Him to unlock it
for you, and then apply what He tells you to. And watch out for the
brethren that will turn and rend you because you didn't do it THEIR
way - and who don't trust God enough to believe that maybe He really
is sovereign and has a plan.
I have LOTS of
problems with the 'cup model' as Doug calls it. The greatest
problem I have with it is that the "blue stuff" that Doug
and Chris refer to is the Holy Spirit. I just can't get my head
around God enjoying being called "blue STUFF"! He is
holy and righteous and we are told not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
OK....here 's the thing: If there are three things in our cups,
sin (red stuff), self (yellow stuff) and Jesus (blue stuff) and we
ask Father God to fill us with Jesus, what happens to the sin and
self that is already in the cup? Does that get displaced?
If so, HOW!? I can't fill someone else's cup in two minutes and
DISPLACE the sin and self in it. That person has to repent of the sin
in them and be forgiven of it.....they need to DIE to self also - and
that is a life-time process. I can't SUCK out someone's sin or
self and replace it with Jesus either! And if they REALLY
feared God as they claim THEY WOULD NOT CALL GOD "BLUE
STUFF"! I am sorry LORD and my brethren for even LOOKING
as though I supported this heresy.
You and I have
talked in the past about this issue of calling Jesus "blue
stuff". I have taken it to the Lord and even acknowledged to you
that the Lord would like me to not do that as much as possible. It's
simply a matter of adjustment, not a renunciation of the model. You
know darn well that there has been LOTS and LOTS of good fruit from
that. You may not want to believe that we can suck the sin out or
whatever, but JESUS certainly can! And I have NEVER at any point
claimed that the DOUG in my cup had any power or authority at all. I
have always sought to get people to a place of repentance (clean out
the inside of the cup) and then help them learn how to "be being
filled". There is MUCH good fruit from this and the fundamental
problem that you have had over and over and admitted to it, is that
you cannot seem to get your cup full of HIM and keep it full.
Everyone here has seen you operating n the flesh at times and racing
around and not making good decisions that were based on His
instructions to you. We have seen you pop off at people, get angry,
even demand people get out of the van on the way to taking them to
the hospital early in the morning on a foggy highway because you
didn't like their tone. Most of the time, you later repent and
acknowledge you're not full - and then blame your schedule and all
the people not helping for your problem. The reality is that you have
some places the enemy is accessing and you refuse to listen to those
who have repeatedly come to try to get you to address the problems.
You let the enemy sneak in and bind you up and now you are just a
shadow of the mighty woman of God that I have known you to be. I weep
for you, dear friend. I have spent so much time trying to get you to
see, to keep your eyes on Him, to keep your cup full. But there is
"yellow stuff" in you that is set in concrete. And I fear
that if He does not break it up and flush it out, that you will not
be able to go where He is calling you to go.
There has been
much secrecy at FOTM. Many 'meetings' behind closed doors, most
of which I have no idea what was discussed.
What you mean
is that there were conversations and discussions in which you were
not included. What you mean is that you feel left out and are hurt
and feel betrayed. That you should have been involved in all the
details and private meetings and counseling sessions. Even though
most of the time your cup wasn't full -
and some of it was none of your business.
There was never any obligation, nor is it feasible, that ALL
should be involved in every meeting. You are not defending Andrew or
Rusty or Lisa's right to be in all those meetings - you are
expressing your jealousy for having been left out personally.
Some with sisters
who have trusted these men, and some have been sucked into stuff that
have caused them to run. Doug used to talk about
transparency. I never saw much....and have found that any
person who disagrees with Him or with Chris is immediately labeled
having 'a red dragon', and therefore God has placed a curse on them
which only God can lift. They are then ignored, marginalised,
and others of their "inner circle" warned that they should
be treated as if they are possessed. Anyone coming near that
person in that time needs to be very careful because what is
"on" that person could jump on them. So of course
everyone stays well clear of that person. Psychology, spiritual and
emotional manipulation and witchcraft have been the order of the day.
I have been the prime target for a long time, as many will testify.
Clare, you
paint all of this with your own spin to justify the hatred that has
corrupted your heart. I have never closed my arms to ANYONE - not
even June. When they came back for prayer or had needs or repented or
anything, they were always received back. I have never ejected ANYONE
from fellowship nor have I commanded people to stay away from them.
Are spirits real? Yes. Do they spread? Surely. Should we always have
our armor on? Of course. This letter alone is evidence that people
can get "slimed" by anger and bitterness and fear and
jealousy that the enemy uses to divide the Body of Christ - and uses
CHRISTIANS to foment. You have not been the prime target Clare, you
have been the one behind a WHOLE lot of the control and manipulation
and rule-setting and telling people what to do. Even now you are
mostly mad at me because I didn't do what YOU wanted me to do - stay
in 615 and spend time with you. Yet I could NOT because you had made
me an idol - and still are in an inverted way.
I have seen you
coerce people with food, with money, with guilt, with a hug, with a
roof, with the police, with force, and with other people you have
rallied to your cause. For nearly three years, I have seen you
"triangulate" and rope other people into your arguments to
defend your "side" and "join your army". People
that should have NEVER been involved and for whom many negative
consequences have resulted. This kind of stuff has done MUCH harm to
the Body and continues to do so. At its heart, it's an absolute lack
of faith in God that HE can handle things and that you should just
watch and ONLY do what He tells you to and NOT lean on your own understanding.
You leave out
that Gary, your now husband, would have NEVER been here at all had
Chris not driven (straight thru) to Phoenix to spiritually hog-tie
him and bind up everything (a job which you now mock him for) and got
him on a plane to Kansas City. Gary would also not be here if not for
my intervention the third night he was here and being attacked
spiritually and he barged into your room while he was not conscious
of what he was doing. You wanted to throw him out the next day and I
insisted that hospitals DO NOT eject sick people. We got him
delivered, free of addiction to drugs and some time later, you two
married. Yet you refuse to acknowledge your debt to JESUS for having
used Chris and I to make this happen. So much of the fruit that you
have seen, of the growth that you have experienced or have seen in
others, of the provision that has come, of the vision for ministry
and revival - is because you were sent by God to Liberty to be, as
you have often claimed "Doug's armor bearer". Yet now, you
insist that it's all waste and fraud and lies and satan. Even to
calling me an antichrist (or THE Antichrist according to one
witness!). So did God tell you to come help or not? Were you wrong
then or are you wrong now?
Accountability was
thrown out the window a long time back. I brought all that I
had and laid it at the feet of the apostles.
No, you didn't.
You said that you did. But you always kept a grip on it and continue
even now to assert that it was YOUR money. Which is it, Clare? Did
God tell you to lay it down or didn't He? Was it God's money or
Clare's money? What does God do with people that takes sacrifices
back OFF the altar?
So much of that
money (into the 6 figures) has been spent by Chris on "mission
trips" chasing 'spiritual brides', large sums of money spent on
gas, covering large distances, motel accommodation, and a pretty
comfortable life-style.
You exaggerate
again and impune and insult. Chris was called by God to be on the
road a lot of the time. Hard duty to be sure. God has prepared him
with past jobs to be many long hours on the road. You have
repeatedly, MANY times, prayed with me about if we were to give Chris
money for this or that trip and heard that we were. You make it sound
like NONE of this was God-directed and that is a lie. Either you were
hearing God or you weren't, but don't make like we never prayed
together about ANY of this. And, while it's not in this email, you
have made the assertion elsewhere about this "comfortable
lifestyle" that you assert, that Chris didn't stay at Super 8 or
Motel 6 type hotels but hotels that cost over $100 a night. These are
ALL LIES, Clare. And if you deny it, then prove me wrong. I dare you
to show me ONE SINGLE SOLITARY receipt. I dare you to testify to
ANYONE that you have even seen the bank statements listing his
expenses. I dare you to confess to the world ANY single instance of
Chris staying at a hotel that was more than $100. Be very careful,
Clare. You have stated affirmatively and publicly that Chris did
this. Yet you have absolutely no evidence of it and it is entirely
contrived. In fact, the ONLY hotel that he OR I ever stayed at that
was more than $100 was a single night in the Marriott across from
Rick Warren's Saddleback when I was on the road in January of 2007 -
long before your house in Australia was sold. And even on that
occasion, he hadn't slept well in days and I slept in the van so he
wouldn't be bothered by my snoring! On MANY occasions he has slept in
his truck or not at all. On many occasions he has stayed with people
in their homes and been a great blessing to them. He has fed the
poor, ministered to hundreds of people, helped light lampstands,
given words of encouragement or rebuke to pastors and others, and
many other things that YOU COULD NOT DO. Because it's what HE was
made for. I pray that all watching can see that you have
unforgiveness and bitterness in your heart toward Chris - mostly
because you felt like I preferred him over you. You have said in
front of witnesses that you have ought against him and adamantly
refuse to do anything about it. THAT is so completely against all
that Jesus stood for that I don't even know where to start to quote
you verses. Suffice it that if you do not forgive, then YOU will not
be forgiven. If you let this stay inside you, it will crush you - and
those standing around here that love you and know the difference,
feel like it's already destroying you.
This money that
was brought to the ministry was to be spent on ministry, especially
to help save souls and minister Jesus to the community of
Liberty. A very large slice of the money from my contribution
has been used on equipment that Doug and Chris bought for their own
use, which they carted away from here to their own place without a
second thought.
What
equipment?! What "very large slice"?! If you're going to
make accusations of theft and fraud and graft, you better have some
specifics!! What are you talking about? The paper cutter? The $50
laminator? The copies of my books? What, Clare? WHAT? You CANNOT say
things like this without accountability.
What exactly is
"a very large slice" of "into the six figures"
(which was in fact around $120,000 as I recall, not some exaggerated
number that you leave blank so people will fill in with the worst
possible scenario). Is a "very large slice" fifty percent?
Twenty percent? Would ten percent be considered a "very large
slice"? That would be $12,000. Can you show me where Chris or I
have $12,000 of "equipment" for our personal use that we
took? NO. You cannot because it's a lie. Where is this coming from
Clare? Search your heart! What voice are you hearing? Is there ANY
witness that you can bring forth that can substantiate the
"equipment" that we took? Clare, you need to repent for
these lies that you have fearlessly spoken and repeated.
You are
spitting on your brethren. What, Clare? What did I take? The computer
God provided for me on the road long before this? Chris is on the
road (as usual) with his entire worldly possessions in two travel
bags. What of the things that he has with him on the road is this
"equipment"? Where did we hide it all? Is ANYONE out there
listening and going to hold Clare to account? For her own sake, I beg
you, these lies HAVE to be exposed so that she will see that she is
co-opted by something bad and dark!
I was seldom
consulted about their spending. They just spent as they
wanted....Chris's numerous trips out in the vehicles to buy coffee he
preferred to the coffee I provided - and food they preferred rather
than the food that was prepared for them -all taken out of the funds,
making sure their creature comforts were catered for. They sacrificed
nothing, and lived very well. They lied about their sacrifices.
Clare, many,
many times we were out and you got the same coffee that Chris got.
Many, MANY times I have seen you cater to your own "creature
comforts". Many, MANY times you have put gourmet meals on the
table when we would have all been happy with bologna. You lived very
well, too. And often off of ministry funds that I didn't question you
about. Yes, there were times you used money from your own account.
Just as many times, I used money for things or to help Chris from
money that came from sources other than you. Do you have any idea how
much that was? No. You don't. Many, MANY times the Lord would NOT
allow me to eat anything you prepared. At least as some times because
the Bible makes it clear that there are certain people that we are
NOT to eat with - including idolaters. In fact, you made me the
object of your attention and were jealous of anyone that got time
with me. You tried to wait on me hand and foot and do for me. And I
don't resent those who serve, but time after time when you drifted
into idolatry (and admitted it time after time later), the Lord would
have me withdraw rather than feeding it. In fact, during those times,
if I eat the dinner you have prepared for me, am I not eating food
sacrificed to idols! You make it sound like Chris and I were out at
five star hotels eating gourmet meals. More likely I had a bowl of
cereal in my room or someone ordered a cheap pizza. Or you made a
whole mess of food without asking God and then are frustrated that
half the house is fasting! You refuse to admit that this is mostly
about your feelings being hurt because you went to a lot of trouble
to BRIBE us into fellowshipping with you because you were lonely -
and the Lord would not allow us to be witchcrafted and manipulated
like that. Please, Clare, we've dealt with this over and over for
three years. This rejected little child thing inside HAS to die!
We sacrificed
nothing? You really going to stand by that? After all of this? After
all you've seen? After all I've laid down for you and others - all
that has been given away sacrificially or walked away from. These are
lies, Clare. And worse, hateful lies. All that I own can be packed in
the back of my van in less than an hour. All that Chris owns can fit
in a couple of bags in the front seat of his Trooper.
Does getting beat on by people that said they love you qualify as
sacrifice? Cause I've
been doing that for a long time! All of us have. What sacrifice did
I lie about? Did I fake fasting? Was I not on the phone ministering
or the web or praying with someone or grieving on my face nearly
every day? Was I getting manicures? Was I flying jet planes? Was I
getting a hair cut?! Was I playing video games for hours? What are
you accusing me of EXACTLY, Clare? You can't spread this kind of
stuff all over the world and say things like that and think it's OK.
There WILL be an accounting for every idle word. And this email is
FULL of idle words.
They pretended to
be about their Father's business but looked after number one.
Doug's wife Rachael challenged him many times with the scripture 2
Thess.3:6-12, and I also did likewise a few days ago. He has not
responded to it.
So that
everyone can see, here is the verse:
2 Thess 3:6-12
(KJV) - 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that
walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of
us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved
not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's
bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day,
that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have
not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any
would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are
some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are
busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our
Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
Your dispute is
that I do not work. Your argument must then be that if I'm not
punching a time clock for a company, for a system of man, then I'm
not working and therefore I should not eat. But then, neither are
you. And your argument is that you can't because you don't have a
work visa. And yet, you are eating. How is it that you are eating?
Because God has provided for you through the sale of your house
(which didn't have to go the way it did and we know that God
intervened there). You are working for GOD (or at least you were) and
HE was feeding you. Chris and I are no different. All of those who
work for the Gospel should make their living by the Gospel. (I Corin.
9:14). Also that you should not muzzle the ox when they are treading
grain (I Corin. 9:9) and that those who sow spiritual things have a
right to reap material things (I Corin. 9:11). Paul makes it clear
that not all the apostles worked, only he and his, so as not to be a
burden on anyone - so that he would not lose his boast. Are you
really arguing that those who work for the gospel do not have a right
to receive support? (2 Thes. 3:9 above) Are you really arguing that I
goof off all day? Are you arguing that I do not have a
"job"? Then do you?
Is there any
pastor or ministry leader or orphanage director that isn't
essentially a charity case dependent upon those who feel led to
support the work they are doing? The fact is that I didn't ask you
for your money, was shocked when you told me what the Lord had told
you and we prayed over and over that NOTHING would get spent outside
of His will and that any money that was touched or spent that wasn't
His will would be a curse on the person who did it. I meant it. Did
you? Is it possible that this has turned into a curse on you? You
certainly seemed to be obsessed with money now. One or the other of
us is wrong. Sooner or later the Lord is going to shine His light on
all of it.
You leave out
that over and over YOU bought things to try to "bless me"
that could be considered extravagances - or at least not truly
necessities. You leave out the thousands upon thousands of dollars
that were spent that you and I prayed about together and agreed
needed to be spent. Can't you hear the twist you put on all of this
to make yourself look like the innocent victim that was wronged by
the big, mean boys?
And to be
clear, Doug's wife Rachael, also called you a Jezebel and wanted
nothing to do with you and refused to allow you in her house or near
her children. So you might not want to pretend like she is on your side.
MANY times I asked
Chris to help me with this or that, and also Doug, and was told,
"The LORD is telling me no, I can't help you." I gave
up asking. I don't know that the admonition of the LORD to bear each
other's burdens and encourage and help each other ever touched
them. They took all and gave little in return. There was
no fellowship, nothing. I asked Doug if we could get together
in the mornings for prayer, and was told no. Mostly one didn't
see him before about 11am, anyway, after staying up until 3-4am.
Clare, again,
this is your frustration for not getting help to fulfill YOUR
mission. You were called to do a certain thing and others were called
to do other things. You felt (and feel) that because you were paying
the bills, everyone should be helping YOU do what God called YOU to
do. That is a giant trap that many of us can fall into, but a trap
nonetheless. You took a lot from me, Clare. A lot from Chris, too. We
poured out and prayed and cried and begged and loved and rebuked in
love did all that we could - while you put up more and more walls of
resistance and built up more and more expectation of evil. You wanted
to have a regular prayer meeting every morning where all the house
came together at a certain time. I objected on the grounds that the
LORD needed to be in charge, not a schedule. We have ALWAYS let Him
lead and sometimes He does get everyone up in the morning for prayer,
sometimes not. To try to schedule and force Him goes against all that
we've been learning - and makes us just another denominational,
institutional "church" programming God. There were lots of
times of fellowship - more than enough for me, but not enough for you
because of the deep loneliness that you refuse to acknowledge and
satan continues to use to his advantage. And you seem to infer that I
was doing something nefarious late into the evening, but you know
that it was the only time I could get some quiet on the computer
without phones and emails and instant messages. I was, and continue
to, work for the Lord from the second I woke up until I couldn't keep
my eyes open anymore.
Is it true that
now "your ministry house" now has a mandatory curfew at
night by which they have to be in or you will lock them out? Is it
true that if they associate with me or any one that associates with
me that you will eject them from the house? Is it true that when you
ejected Rusty (under threat of law because he associated with me),
that you actually took his mattress to the basement because he was so
"dangerous"? Was it spiritually infected? Or just because
you didn't want him to come back and sleep in it? Is it true that
Gary had Andrew by the throat and forcibly ejected him and threatened
to call the police on him? Is it true that you asked him if he was
ready to join YOUR army now? You know that you testified in front of
the Body that you DID say that - and I believe, given the evidence of
the situation now, that it really was the intention of your heart
showing, not just a slip of the tongue. Are you really being
transparent with all the people that call and email about how
controlling and manipulative "your ministry house" has
become? That you've locked the food pantry and frequently station
"guards" at the front porch to make sure no one comes and
takes any of "your" food? What happened to trusting the
angels? We used to not even lock the door at night! My van sits
unlocked nearly all the time - even when I was driving around the
country with everything I had in it, the Lord taught me to trust HIM,
not police and not even the locks on the doors. You have fallen very
far, Clare. Ruled by fear and finger-pointing and anger - and Gary.
I have a witness
who stayed in Doug and Chris's room who came to me very distressed
one day, who had seen pornographic material being watched. I
spoke to Doug about it later but he didn't seem to be all that
concerned about it.
Clare, again
this is twisted and self-serving and a lie at its heart. By the way
you say this, you make it sound like this incident happened IN Doug
and Chris' room - so somehow I'm involved. Since this allegation has
already been used on the internet by others to brand me as a
pornographer, I'm asking you to bring for ANY witness that testifies
that I was looking at pornographic material. I'm serious, Clare. You
better buck up and speak this with boldness and facts or repent for
saying this. It's being used against me as if it's fact and this
whole statement is full of innuendo.
The FACTS are
that a brother from another country, from a very sheltered lifestyle
had concerns about a movie that Chris was watching. He DID not assert
that it was Pay-Per-View porn or anything like that. He came to me
about it with his concern that Chris shouldn't be watching an
"R" rated movie, because he felt it was pornographic. He
had simply walked by, looked over Chris' shoulder and seen something
on the computer that concerned him. I'm not defending whatever movie
Chris might have been watching at the time (nor claiming God told him
to) - but I know that this brother has a VERY different threshold of
what is "pornography" than does the average American. I
told this brother that he needed to approach Chris directly about his
concerns, that it was not right for him to come to me (first, I'm not
Chris' head and second, the Bible says to go to the brother). I have
checked with Chris and neither he nor I remember this brother ever
having done that - but he went to you. And now YOU have gone to the
world with it. This is NOT Jesus. This is cowardice on all sides.
Yes, there was
fruit from them. Bad fruit. Every now and then there would be a
praise report, but mostly the fruit was bad.
That's a harsh
charge. What is "every now and then" EXACTLY. And how much
bad fruit do YOU have? And when did we go public with a long list of
what WE thought was your bad fruit? This is totally subjective and
influenced by all the stuff that is festering inside you, Clare. I
have pages and pages of emails thanking me for time spent or prayers
or books written. I have a whole bunch of thank you's to us for
having sent Chris out and it made so much difference for this or that
family. I pray that people can see that charges like this are USELESS
and unmeasurable and totally subjective. Show me FACTS and define
clearly what YOU say is bad fruit. Not helping you? Watching a movie?
Not eating your dinner and fellowshipping with you? Having a private
meeting? Being willing to be used by God to speak a harsh word to
someone that will not hear? Breaking a wiggly chair as a statement of
God's judgement over your house? Do we really need to make this a
"Fruit-off" where we start whipping stuff out to prove
something? My goal in this has never been to humiliate or embarrass
you publicly - simply to get you to see that there is a serious
problem here and some things you HAVE to lay down. None of this ever
had to go this way, had you received private rebukes and been truly
repentant all the times you repented - and truly forgiving all the
times you forgave.
Always the reasons
given for anything at all was because the LORD told them......or the
voice that they claimed to be the LORD. Which brings me to a problem
that concerns me greatly.......
I do not know of
ONE of the mighty (and not so mighty) men of the Scriptures, or even
those since, who have had to ask the LORD what shirt to wear in the
morning or even if they were allowed to go to the toilet for a
'nature call'. I know that the LORD gave us wisdom, and the
book of Proverbs is 31 chapters of wisdom and how to live - apart
from the rest of the Bible. If God wanted us to be totally
obedient moment by moment of our waking lives, the Bible and the
wisdom that He imparts would be almost unnecessary - particularly Proverbs.
Proverbs 3:5-6 -
"Trust the Lord your God with ALL your heart and lean not on
your own understanding. In ALL your ways acknowledge Him and HE will
direct your paths."
That is from
the book that you say does NOT tell us to let Him direct ALL of our
paths. Did you really just speak with your own mouth (fingers) that
God DOES NOT want us to be totally obedient moment by moment of our
waking lives?! Are you sure that is a sustainable argument?
I am not called
to be like Samson or Gideon or Stephen. We are called to be like
JESUS. So how did Jesus do it?
John 5:19 (KJV) -
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto
you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father
do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jesus, our
master, king, commander - our exemplar - never did ANYTHING except
what He saw the Father doing. He NEVER directed His own paths. THAT
is our example. The mightiest man of all the mighty men of the Bible
obeyed Proverbs 3:5-6 EVERY WAKING MOMENT.
How about this?
John 16:12-15
(KJV) - 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot
bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but
whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you
things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine,
and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are
mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it
unto you.
Even the HOLY
SPIRIT only says what He is told. THAT is obedience. That is our
calling. If the mighty men of the Bible were the top of the heap,
then Jesus would NOT have said that the LEAST of us with the Holy
Spirit is greater than John the Baptist, the greatest of the
prophets. You err. We are to be radically obedient all the time. Else
show me which times the Bible says it's OK to go our own way and lean
on our own understanding.
A whole lot of
the Bible is law that was established for Israel AFTER they refused
to hear God's voice. And the Father Himself bemoaned the situation
and longed for a people that WOULD want to hear His voice and obey.
(Deut. 5:26) A whole lot of the Bible is there for the people that
WILL NOT listen to His voice. But the man that is lead by the Spirit
is NOT under Law. (Gal 5:18). And those that are Sons of God are
those that ARE led by the Spirit - not by reason or logic or proverbs
or tradition or "common sense". (Romans 8:14)
What about the
righteous remnant in Revelation that are dressed in white and Christ
is their head and NO lie proceeds out of their mouth? Are they real?
Do you think they are depending on "wisdom" and
"proverbs" and reasoning things out - or are they RADICALLY
obedient at all times to His headship? They follow the Lamb wherever
He goes. (Rev. 14:1-5)
At the root of
this, you refuse to let Him direct all your paths - we've seen you
yourself assert that God told you to do something that was totally
flesh. We've seen you do things without even asking if it was the
Lord's will - and use this "He gives us a brain" argument
to justify it.
Fine, do what
you will. But this is the reality of MY walk - and that of thousands
of others that are SCARED TO DEATH of touching the steering wheel
themselves. Do I make mistakes? Sure. Do I hit trees sometimes? Sure.
But NOT when He is driving. Only when I take the wheel.
The LORD gave us
CHOICE - just like in the Garden of Eden. (Deut.30) If God made us to
be robots then our love for Him would not be love, but simple
obedience. God desires to receive our LOVE! True love is a
CHOICE. The Word is our lamp to our feet and the light to our
pathway (Psalm 119:105)...why would we then need to HEAR AUDIBLY the
'voice' of the LORD telling us EVERY move?
The Lord gave
us CHOICE so that we could LAY IT DOWN and be a Bondservant.
Bondservants don't get choices, they obey. We have choices long
enough to decide that we always choose wrong and then we hand the
headship over to HIM and stop trying to do it ourselves. That is LOVE.
So have you
ever heard God speak or not? Because even in THIS email you assert
VERY firmly that you heard God say, "NO! NO! NO!" about
child support. Was that an "audible" voice? Do you mean
outside your head like thunder or inside your head but literal? If
God speaks then it's simply a matter of how often you hear Him. And
that depends on how much of YOU is in the way clogging you up. And if
you get REALLY unclogged, you'll probably hear Him pretty good. That
you are not, Clare, is evidence that you're clogged up - because you
used to hear Him real good all the time and you didn't make these
kinds of arguments. Unless you want to deny that you did then - in
which case you were either wrong then or wrong now. If He is real and
He is Abba, why wouldn't I want to hear Him about every move?
There are
MANY ways the LORD tells us things - so I suspect that many of the
voices that are heard are not of the LORD, but simply 'self'. The
audible voice of God was SELDOM heard by the prophets of
old....sometimes only a couple of times in a lifetime. He spoke
only when He had revelation for them to give to the people. The
rest of the time they lived according to the Law and/or the guiding
of the Holy Spirit. It certainly was not every minute of every
day. To teach others that it is infinitely desired to hear the
audible voice of God, causes them to think that there is something
wrong with them if they do NOT hear this 'voice' all the time as most
don't, and they go into a tail-spin because they think God is not
hearing them and doesn't love them!
That's a giant
crock, Clare. There are many examples of the old testament prophets
hearing Him a lot and regularly, telling them to do all kinds of
things, including give messages to the people. And even MORE SO in
the New Testament where God is directing their paths and telling them
not to go to certain cities and helping them constantly. What exactly
is the difference between the guiding of the Holy Spirit and hearing
God? Have I differentiated? Have I told people that if you're not
hearing "a voice" then it doesn't count? I have repeatedly
tried to show people all of the different ways that the Godhead might
speak to you and how to listen and why you should obey. There are
MANY people that hear Him (in some form or another) all the time and
are directed by Him and would not trade it for anything in the world.
I am NOT going to start backing down and telling people to only
expect to hear from God once or twice in their lifetime and then only
on REALLY important stuff! What kind of relationship is THAT?! I do
not teach that it is "infinitely desired to hear the audible
voice of God" - I teach relationship with a living God that
walks beside you and desires to direct all of your paths. Because His
WORD says that is what He is and what He wants. We are Bondservants,
not free agents. And we are Sheep that are SUPPOSED to hear His voice
- not just in emergencies, but ALL the time.
DEMONS!
How much glory does God get when men chase around after demons,
powers and principalities? None. If you are game, try
reading "The Key of the Mysteries" by Eliphas Levi. (It can
be found on line). The Sword that destroys the "gods"
is right there. If you do a google search on the author, you will see
he was mentor to Aleister Crawley, the "beast" - the
biggest satanist to ever live. Crawley also had a book written
with the "help"of IWAS, a "god" who would talk to
him regularly....WOW ! There is much in this book that has a ring
about the 'games' that Doug and Chris have played inviting the demons
in and messing with them. This is not a comic-book game!
THIS IS LIFE AND DEATH! I remember clearly a long time back the
horror that I felt when another person who was 'fellowshiping' with
us at the time invoked all the demons, inviting them to come from
Kenya to Liberty. The next was the whole continent of
Africa. I had so many checks in my spirit, my hair stood
on end. I prayed and prayed that the LORD's protection would be
over us, and that He would shield me with the blood of the Lamb. I
remember Doug going out after these hords and 'doing warfare' against
them. He often describes the things that he does in the spirit
to these demonic powers, torturing and tormenting them. I have
only seen a few demons with my natural eyes, but I have seen their
influence in a person and in people's lives and the influence that
they have over people. I know one thing, that if I chase after them
they will end up having a controlling influence in my life.
And if you
ignore them, they will STILL have a controlling influence in your
life. We are NOT to ignore them. The Bible is clear that our battle
is spiritual and real. You have seen them with your own eyes and you
have seen COUNTLESS people delivered in the last three years. Even
children manifesting all kinds of demons that were freed by this
"warfare" you insist we mustn't do. The VERY FIRST thing
that someone with a Red Dragon does is go after the Red Dragon book
and start this whole line of "we're giving satan glory by
talking about demons so much". You and I have been through this
before. Over two years ago you insisted that we were emphasizing this
too much and that it was going too far - and a sister received a word
that the Lord was not happy and was sending a very special demon just
to prove it to you if you didn't repent. And you didn't. And you took
me up on the challenge. And the Lord afflicted you with this thing so
bad that you were repenting and begging to get it off three days
later. Do you forget the lessons that He has taught you? Do you
forget the witchcraft and loneliness and fear and so many other
things that were RIPPED off of you time after time and you KNEW it?
At our own peril do we have to tread the same ground again! I stand
by what the Lord has shown me. I stand by the reality of our weapons
of spiritual warfare and our access to God's armory. There are MANY
weapons that are accessible to us for the battles He puts before us.
Our enemies have weapons, why shouldn't we? Ultimately we will be
judged by our fruit. And I have a long string of people getting free
from fear and addiction and schizophrenia and physical illnesses and
all kinds of things and walking in victory. Not in the power of
"Doug"! Not ever. But in the Name of Jesus Christ our Lord,
nothing can stand against us. Unless you choose to ignore it, say the
battle is already over, throw open all the doors and just sing and
dance with your fingers in your ears as if they're not really there.
JESUS CHRIST IS
LORD!!!! JESUS ALONE MUST BE LIFTED UP - HE ALONE MUST BE THE
CONTROLLING INFLUENCE IN MY LIFE! "Yet Michael the
archangel, in contending with the devil,when he disputed with the
body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but
said, "The LORD rebuke you!" (Jude 9) 17 Then the seventy
returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to
us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall
like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to
trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the
enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do
not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather
rejoice because your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:17-20)
Eliphas Levi in
the Introduction to his book talks about weapons....."When a man
becomes a magician he looks about him for a magical weapon; and ,
being probably endowed with that human frailty called laziness, he
hopes to find a weapon ready made."
You're quoting
WARLOCKS now to prove your point? You're reading books about
witchcraft to show where I'm wrong? Are you sure that's a good idea?
The Word of God is clear that ANYTHING the enemy has is a cheap
counterfeit of whatever WE have in Christ. Our God is able to do
abundantly, exceedingly beyond anything we can think or imagine.
I have wondered at
these weapons - gatling guns, nukes, and other carnal weapons that
these two intrepid 'warriors' bring out and take on the hords from
hell with. Having seen them fo | 
